Speaking of on the road again.......
you're heading West?
Hopefully some place more reasonable to live than California.
Personally, with the costs and taxes here in Michigan I sure wouldn't make this my first choice.
There sure were a lot of memories from T-land.
Some good, some not.
Some things that were going on in the field I wish I had been aware of--but, in retrospect at least it was something to learn from.
I try to follow the "if you can't say something good..." philosophy so I won't say too much about Thermotron but the last 3 years seem to have made the problems with that management theory finally have a major effect on their business.
It surprises me that it takes so long for results to be seen from both good and bad things.
I would expect quicker results.It seems to work for us to be aware of the competition but not sell against them or even address them too much in our approach, just concentrate on the equipment and what we will do for the customer.
I have come to learn that there are some bad customers, very few actually, but it's best just to walk away and leave those to someone else.
Of course I think we could use more service people but I can't argue against the volume numbers I see coming in.
The trend is up but not by leaps and bounds so we're still in a holding pattern as far as adding people. I certainly think you would be an asset.
We don't have a wild crew (unless I'm missing something again)
but then how wild can one guy be? As we get older we get wiser.To thine own self be true.
(and to heck with the rest)I
hope the move works out well and keep in touch.Best regards,Tom-----Original Message-----
From: paul saint [mailto:p1saint@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 6:52 PMTo: tpatterson@espec.comCc:
p1saint@angelfire.comSubject:
as always.. humblet
hanks for letting me vent over these years..
But if i have ever hurt someone it was not intentional,
but interesting hil sysbesma referred to the management style as "petty and vinidictive..
Especally
after o'kefe brought a law suit agains him for a million dallars as recall Hil telling me.
When you leave with out his permission.
Tom banish's management style as dean tripp
(i believe he is 70 years old this year or 71)
said was"make it hard on him the co workers"
he wanted to build a case against every one..and
Tom bannish was very succussful in that .. without a doubt
who can really fit in there
.gosh i guess i was a square..
ot drinking all that beer at lunch and after work.
That is why tenbrink and dave durham called me squeky..
guess they were wild.. hank william's songs.."on the road again.. i can't wait to get on the road again"
john tenbrink singing.. kind of like his brother who died young " the kurnal " music man
John tenbrink even gave me a record that his brother produced.
yes john tenbrink was a wild man. He convinced John Sherman to be an adulter and ruin his aarrage just so john tenbrink could have a drinking buddy while he was in wichita kansas at Boeing Co. .
Marty Rich.. got a taste of his style of "leading people astray" When he was working at Espec he convinced marty to cheat on his time card with him and then when behind his back and blamed marty for it.. This is what tom bannach had people do in California to help build a case against them.
John TenBrink really should have gone to prison for embezzlement when he was at Thermotron and conspiricy with intent to defraud his co-worker.
This appears to be another holland style Holland'ers, church goers particular wird people.. where dishonesty was the policy..
But you Tom Patterson.. always seemed normal..good job...
that's why u are successful in the sales game..look at these memories..
what a waste of time..
The biggest illusion was
"I thought it was important.. and nothing the work i did there mattered at all. "
Oh i did work at Boeing and Littion as a result of doing a good job BUT
At Thermotron ... Dan Okeefe.. really is a basic criminal psycopath..
it was just a monkey job..see i did have a blank on my forhead..
Tom Bannach was right .. he could lie, cheat and slander his co-workers.. and every one would go along with his lies..
Greg V Johnson a Tom Bannach pet was able to rob and steal and embezzle over 50,000 dollars and take home every thing in the office..
and Greg V Johnson and Tom Bannach drummed out and defrauded their co-workers..
Randy Bunn who hired him at Enseco.. Fired him of robbery thief and embezzlement within 3 months of employment..
But Dean Tripp said they (Thermotron) like people like that.. who are dishonest, liars, back stabbers and thieves..
Mary Rich said to me that Thermotron likes it when u tell them that
"U lied for them"
Wednesday, September 26, 2007
Sunday, September 23, 2007
religion
Have u ever read the book by Malichi martin Hostage to the devil?
i did meet one person in holland michiganwho is excessive in her christian devotion.
but as for me i did find a church that had "Good Donuts" and free coffee
In Your Presence, by Deb TrammellDeb TrammellSep 22, 2007
In Your Presence
The angels stand at attention around Your magnificent throne
In your presence God, not one stands alone
The sound of praise, in wonder, is music to Your ears
In this place of safety, You wipe from us, our tears
In Your presence, there is no confusion or strife, that dwells here
As we confess from our heart and give You each and every fear
In Your presence there is precious awe and unspeakable joy
You see no distinction between us, there is no girl or boy
In Your presence, we become saturated, one with You
As You fill our essence with Your glory, this You continue to do
This place of Your throne is indescribable, so calm and serene This is no fantasy,
You reach deep within us, the place we do dream
You plant within us Your desire, for this and every day
We do not second guess You, we speak what You give, us to say
To You be all the glory, we give you all the praise
As You bind up the brokenhearted and the dead spirit,
You do raise You reach, into our darkness, this, is the place we meet
You overflow with kindness and mercy, as we bow at Your feet
Oh Lord our God You are so holy, so wonderful
You are Nothing in this world can compare to You, nothing can, by far
In this place of Your throne, this is the place to stay, to be Hinds feet on high places is what
You have given us, to see
Debra McGee Trammell10-25-06 Psalms 148:2
Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.
Psalms 150:1-21 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; Habakkuk 3:19The LORD God [is] my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' [feet], and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments.
NKJVThe LORD God is my strength;He will make my feet like deer's feet,And He will make me walk on my high hills.... Deb's Poetryhttp://poetrypoem.com/voicesofthelord
FootnotesThe Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity Hyam, Maccoby, Harper San Francisco: 1986
i found this book kind of an interesting read..
i mention this because u quoted paul in your religion article.
(Do u have any experience direct experience with communication with either the Holy Spirit, or familiar spirits?)
or do you know of any in your area..
I knew a "spiritualist in benton harbor.. who could hear from familar spirits.. but i think he's dead now..
The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of ChristianityHyam Maccoby: Harper San Francisco 1986
I have included Maccoby's work because it contrasts well with Brandon's critical hypothesis that most traditional scholarship on this topic fails to cover the "context" that is the "historical context" of events within Judea at this time under oppressive Roman rule.
The Rabbinical and Talmudic references available to a Jewish scholar also provide independent sources.
Few Christians are even aware that perhaps the most important proponent of a non orthodox type of Jewish belief was never even in verbal contact with the man called Jesus in fact, Paul never met Jesus and yet he claimed to be a direct interpreter of his teaching.
The Problem of Paul Paul never met Jesus, they did not know each other. N.T. earliest writings are Paul's letters written A.D. 50-60 the Gospels were written about A.D.70 to 110. Paul's birthplace was in Tarsus, Acts. 9:11, 21:39, and 22:3 he claims he is from the tribe of Benjamin see Romans. II:2, and was a Pharisee according to Phillipians 3:5 claims he studied under Gamaliel Acts. 22:3 * it is important to note that Paul himself never mentions that he was a student of Gamaliel.
Stephen was murdered and Paul is implicated in his death see Acts. 8:1. Paul harries the church and siezes Christians, Acts. 8:3. At the time of Paul's activities the High Priest was a Sadducee not a Pharisee! Paul claims he was a Roman citizen by birth meaning his father also was a Roman citizen.
He was, however, flogged several times see Acts.26, and II Corinthians 11:24 " Five times I have recieved at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one.25 Three times I have been beaten with rods; once I was stoned....(he was flogged in total five times) this is problematical as under Roman law Roman citizens were not flogged. see the best modern effort to make Paul a Pharisee in W.D. Davies Paul and Rabbinic Judaism.
Pharasees, Sadducees and Ebionites:Paul was never a Rabbi ( ie. Pharisee ) he was a police officer for the Sadducee party in Jerusalem under the High Priest. Jesus and his followers were members of the Pharisee sect. Both James and Peter who founded the church after Jesus died were Nazarenes definately a Jewish sect.
It was Paul who founded the new religion called Christianity. * Epiphaneus in his book "Heresies" Testified that Paul had no Pharisee background but that he was the son of Gentile parents who converted to Judaism in Tarsus. The Ebionites were the true successors of Jesus the word in Hebrew means the poor.
The PhariseesPharisees noted for their scholarship, fairness, and leniancy in the law, see Josephus (Ant: 13:294) Torah Relgious teaching and Written and Oral Law. Through the Halakah (Going) and Aggadah (Telling) Christ is the Gk form of the Hebrew word for Messiah or the annointed one ie. the King.
The Sadduccees rejected as heretical by the Pharisees because they rejected the Oral Law and were more concerned with the Status quo. The Sadduccees held three things to be important the Old Testament the Temple and The Priesthood. The Pharisees were leaders concerned with being Rabbi's whereas the Sadduccees were more concerned with being ireus the ireus were accepted by the Pharisees as leaders ie. as didaskos Pharisees were qualified as lawyers and teachers in the Midrash , Torah, and Talmud.
They were the favourite of the people. By 160 B.C. the Ptolemic Greeks had centralized power in the "ireus Rank and file priests were Pharisees they really held the power among the people. The Essenes began a movement against the ireus for bieng corrupt Jesus said regarding the Sabbath and observation of the Law " The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath " this is a famous Pharisee source, part of an argument that saving a life takes presedence over the Sabbath.
Was Jesus a Pharisee?Yes see (Mark12. 28-34) Jesus is speaking to a lawyer (meaning a Pharisee) in a (friendly discussion) * in Mathew the story is edited to make a Pharisee look very critical of Jesus.* Pharisee teaching:
The 2 statements Jesus makes are an exact reference to Deuteronomy and to Leviticus and are Pharisee teachings; as follows:A) Shema Hear O Israel the Lord our God is the only Lord, love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.B) Love your neighbour as yourself.
Rabbi Hillel and Rabbi Akiba both taught that this was the principal of Judaism upon which everything else depended. These two men were the greatest sages of Pharisee thought. In the Gospels an attempt is made to state the Pharisees accused Jesus of healing on the Sabbath against the Jewish laws when in fact there are laws which support these very acts of Jesus. see. Mark3:6 and Matt.12:14 In Mark 3:6 the reference is to partisans of Herod Antipas they must be Sadduccees! Mark 12:18-27
Ressurection from the dead is a Pharisee belief. Luke 13:31 At that time a number of Pharisees came to him and said, " You should leave this place and go on your way, Herod is planning to kill you. " Jesus is shown in this reference to be a friend of the Pharisees and therefore it cannot be an interpolation or a late insertion it must be true. Messiah= anointed ie. King of Davidic line this is not a blasphemy.
Exodus 21:19 Doctors bills and loss of employment must be paid for by the guilty party to an injury. * an eye for an eye refers to monetary compensation. Mark 7:19 Jesus declared all foods to be clean. ( is this an interpolation or mistranslation?) see the word Brwmata = foods? Mark 1:43 Jesus expressly commands a leper to follow the laws of purity. Mark 2 the corn plucking incident. * Jesus did not break the law as the men were very hungry ie. a sense of emergency has been removed.
Why was Jesus Crucified?Luke 23:2 And they began to accuse him, saying, " We found this man perverting our nation, and forbidding us to give tribute to Caesar, and saying that he himself is Christ a king." The actual charge was that he claimed to be King and forbid people to give tribute to CaesarJohn 19:12 Upon this Pilate sought to release him, but the Jews cried out, "If you release him you are not Ceasar's friend; every one who makes himself a king sets himself agianst Ceasar."Acts 5 Gamaliel's actions show that the Pharisees were sympathetic towards Jesus see the reference to his intervention upon the behalf of the disciples in the Sanhedran Sadduccee court.Acts 5:33-40
33 When they heard this they were enraged and wanted to kill them. 34 But Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, held in honour by all the people, stood up and ordered the men to be put outside for a while. 35 And he said to them, "Men of Israel, take care what you do with these men. 36 For before these days Theu'das arose, giving himself out to be somebody, and a number of men, about four hundred, joined him; but he was slain and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. 37 After him Judas the Galilean arose in the days of the census and drew away some of the people after him; he also perished, and all who followed him were scattered. 38 So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail;39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!" 40 So they took his advice and, when they had called in the apostles, they beat them and charged them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
as Paul a Pharisee?
cts 5 shows that the disturbance was political. Judas of Galilee was a Pharisee Rabbi who founded the Zealot movement against Rome mentioned by Gamaliel.
If the Pharisees were very angry with Jesus and found his teaching to be so agianst the law why did Gamaliel not question him about breaking religous laws?
Gamliel was held in very high regard as a Pharisee. The word saviour in Gk is close to the word Liberator? the word for robber in the NT Gk ie. lsths = a rebel not a robber.
Alleged Rabbinical Style in Paul's Epistles* Pauls elevation of Jesus to divine status was a reversion to paganism to Jews and to Pharisees. kurios= Gk for Lord a heretical title given to Jesus by PaulSchoeps and Klausner are the only scholars to attempt to prove that Paul's Epistles are Pharisaic
( Hyam claims that they failed ). Using the light and heavy arguments of the Pharisaic school Hyam argues that there is only one example from Paul's writing which could be used to support their contention. Examples are found in Romans 7.1-6, Is an example of Paul's very poor legal thinking only the death of the Torah not the body of Christ would make the analogy correct! Targum was in Aramaic as ordinary Jews did not read Hebrew. Regarding the Septuagint Paul always reads from this text but why not from the Hebrew if he was a Pharisee??? eg.Corinthians 15:55 Oh death where is thy victory Oh death where is thy sting? Hosea 13:14 But in Hebrew this passage reads; Oh for your plagues Oh death Oh for your sting Oh grave.
Paul and Stephen ( Saulos kai Stefanou )Acts show Paul acting for the Ireus a Sadduccee and not acting as a Pharisee. Stephen was accused of two things.1) Speaking against the Temple and saying Jesus will destroy it2) Both Jesus and Stephen are portrayed as being tried for something of which they are not actually convicted of; they were killed for a crime they committed in the trial itself. Acts.5 is odd because Gamaliel helps Peter; why would their be any difference between helping Peter and helping Jesus? Hyam feels the text here has been edited. Acts.8 Ref to the persecution of the Church in Jerusalem but why were the leaders allowed to remain? Stephen was leading a schism sect perhaps? Acts.7:59-60 States Paul is a young man a neanou but the Ebionites claim Paul was an adult when he came from Tarsus. Could a young man in Gk adolescent youth lay waste the church and persecute people house to house? Acts.8:1... Acts 7:58 kai ou martures apesento ta imatia autvn para tous podas neanion kaloumenou Saulou
The road to DamaskouActs.9:2Saulos could have had no authority from the arxierei to bring a udas tkai gunaiks eis Ierouslhm his jurisdiction was only over the Temple mount in Ierouslhm The arxierei had no authority to send Saulos into another sunagwgas outside of Judea. Damaskou under the rule of King Aretus IV (9.BC. to A.D.40 ) was an independent kingdom of Nabatae not under Roman rule. Pseudo Clementine Recognitions 1.70 ff. states that Saulos went to Damaskou to arrest Peter. II.Cor. and Acts 9:22-25 Paul's version of events is far more truthfull! Written in AD 55-60 Acts was written about AD 90 and shows the shift from a Political to a Relgious focus. There are four versions of his conversion in Damascus; Acts.9, Acts.22, Acts.26 these are the later accounts. Pauls account is in Gal.1, Romans.7:14 and 8:1 There are contrasts with the Pharisee concept of yetzer ha-tov and yetzer ha-r'a both balance each other both are human. Good and Evil in the Midrash. Rabbah on Ecclesiastes 3:11 Pharisee philosophy of evil versus good; the morality of psychic aggression etc. Saulos created two laws pneuma and sarx and denies the Pharisaic concept of the unity of God: Paul slips and states "We" in ref to the Gentiles in Gal 3:14 ie. is he a Gentile? Ebionites state his parents were Gentiles not Jews. Paul's trade = a leather worker not a tent maker his father in Acts:22-28 is wealthy as a Roman citizen this does not seem true.
The Road to DamascusPaul's version of his Damascus visit written AD 55-60 is much earlier and therefore in most cases more truthfull as to the "political versus the religious nature of these events " than the Acts written much later in AD. 90 *see the shift from A. Political ie. Paul versus the Police chief King Aretus who wished to arrest him for being in Damascus and causing trouble and;B. The later version in Acts where it is the Jews who objected to him ie. it is now a religious account not a political one. Ananias is a respected Jew Acts.22 so why does he baptize Paul? as in Acts.9. Gentiles could become Jews in two ways during this period of time. A. By full conversion;B. By addressing the so called Noahide Laws as required by the Rabbi's; this was the more common procedure adopted by the Gentile converts and they became known as the God-fearers this is probably what Paul originally was. He was by trade a leatherworker not a tentmaker although Skenopoios could also mean tentmaker.
Damascus and AfterPaul has defied the authority of the Jerusalem church apostles; see Gal.1:10-17 He is very conceited and states that he has special status he also claims to have stigmata on his body which was not attested until much later in Church history II Corin.12:2-3
Paul and the EucharistLords prayer is really an old Jewish prayerI Corin 11:23-30contains the first reference to the Eucharist and it is Paul who states plainly that he was the inventor of this tradition. * If Jesus founded the Eucharist why do we not find any reference to it and why was it not practiced in the Jersalem church? * The Gospels were all written after Paul's Epistles. John refers to the shock of the Jewish disciples when they first heard about Paul's Eucharist. Bread then wine is the traditional Jewish meal. Paul's term is Kuriakon Deipnon ie. the Lords supper which = a Gk mystery term for sacred meals. This has been changed by the church to the Eucharist ie. blessing as the church was embarrassed by the connection to the mystery cults proven by this borrowing from the Gk. Hanz Lietzmann indicated long ago that the book of Acts indicates that the Eucharist was not practiced by the Jewish Nazzarines. See Acts.2:42-46 where breaking bread and attending the Temple is shown to be the traditional practice as it is today.
The Jerusalem ChurchIn Acts.2:46 Jesus followers still attend the Temple on a daily basis; * this indicates there was no rival priesthood which could lay claim to authority.If Jesus chose Peter to found his church why was James his brother leader of the Jerusalem Church instead? and further, why did Simon follow him? see Eusebius's list of bishops The ref to the keys of my kingdom is from Isiah where Eliakim is made head of the Sanhedrin with powers to bind and to loose. see Isaiah:19:23 Jesus therefore, is only giving powers to Peter to act as his legal representative not as the founder of a new sect. The priesthood is still monarchial and flows through the blood line. Gibbon states that the first ten leaders of the Christian church were all circumcized Jews while Eusebius states that the first fifteen bishops were circumcised Jews. In Acts.22:12 Ananias of Damascus is no Christian he is described there as a " devout observer of the law and well spoken of by all the Jews of that place." This hardly sounds like a converted Jew! In Acts.21:18-21 James questions Paul re: his efforts to change circumcision and to turn your back upon the Law Johannes Munck Editor of the 20Cent Anchor Bible book of Acts of the Apostles denies the Jewish element of the Jerusalem Jews. See his comments in the Anchor Bible.
The SplitActs purpose is to minimize the conflict between Paul James and Peter The Laws of the sons of Noah known as theNoachim laws used by the Pharisee rabbi's to deal with relations with the Gentiles who wished to become Jews. Reffered to in Acts.15The commandments given by James to Paul regarding relations with the Gentiles were as follows:
To abstain from anything polluted by Idols To abstain from fornication To abstain from anything which had been strangled To abstain from blood
The seven Laws of Noah ( Rabbinical List )Prohibitions against Idolatry Prohibitions against Blasphemy Prohibitions against Fornication Prohibitions against Murder Prohibitions against Robbery Prohibitions against Eating limbs cut from live animals Set up courts of Law * note that Paul was summoned to Jerusalem to give an account of his actions to James and the Elders He was also involved with a confrontation with Peter see Gal.II:11-14 Paul admits in Corin.9:20-22 that he used deception in achieving his goals. He was forced in Acts.21:18-26 to undergo a public humiliation as punishment for his actions in breaking the authority of the Jerusalem Elders in the way he tried to spread his own version of Christianity. He is forced by James to undergo a Nazorean purificatio ritual involving the shaving of the head, baptism payment of fines to the Temple, and the admission that he is a follower and upholder of the Law. Paul agreed to do all this. The Trial of PaulActs.21:27-31The whole of Jerusalem is in an uproar Why the uproar over Paul? if he was such a law abiding Jew? In Acts.17:6-7 the Jews of Thessalonica denounce him to the Roman authorities regarding his trouble making and the efforts by him to stir up trouble against Rome and the claims that there was a rival King. Jesus. ie. he was acting in a political fashion in Acts.21:20-22the Gk word is myriades which means literally tens of thousands not thousands. Claudius Lysius the Roman commandant intervenes on Paul's behalf see his letter to Governor Felix Acts.23-27 * He must have already known about Paul's actions as he was ready to rescue him he was probably informed by Paul's agents. Acts.24:26Paul had a great deal of money with him so Felix invited him often expecting a bribe. At his trial Paul divided the Pharisees and the Sadduccees very perceptively so that he could save his neck.Acts.23:1-10 This trial also shows that the Pharisees supported the Nazoreans. Claudius letter to Felix states however nothing about the riot which supposedly occured at this trial in the Sanhedrin. Assassination attempt. Acts.23:12-15 *Thugs of the high priest about forty in all tried to murder Paul Paul evades capture and a second attempt is made upon his life in Caesarea this time by an agent of the high priest so it is obvious he is wanted for political reasons in Jerusalem.Acts.24:1-9 The high priest's advocate Tertullus charges Paul with disturbing the peace and profaning the Temple, Felix keeps him prisoner for two years in Caesarea until the next Governor Festus arrives . Paul was then sent to Rome by Festus and his destiny is unknown the church claims he was martyred in Rome but there is no proof.
The evidence of the EbionitesRe-Judaization the attempt by 20 Cent scholars to explain the Jerusalem Church. See Matt.5explained as an insertion. S.F.Brandon has shown that the story of the Jerusalem Church leaving for Pella is a fabrication. See The Fall of Jerusalem and the Christian Church, London, 1951. From AD 70 to AD 140 more or less there was no Gentile church in Jerusalem *only in AD 140 was a church errected in the now new Roman city called "Aelia Capitolina", Therefore, there was no continuity this was a Gentile Church as Eusebius states in Ecc.Hist.III .V2-3 * Ebionites; " from the Heb the poor men " despised as heretics by the Catholic Church refused to accept Paul's doctrines. Nazarenes = the original name of the sect of Jesus see Acts.24:5 The term for Christians came from AntiochActs.11:26. In Rabbinical writings the name for this sect of Jesus is Notzrim. The Ebionite belief in the thousand year reign is a sign of their continuation of Nazorean ideology. In the Pseudo Clementine Writings falsely attributed to Clement I a core of writing is found which is 2 Cent Syrian see, F.C.Baur 19Cent and Simon Magus is Paul! An Arabic MS discovered by Shlomo Pines showed that a 10 Cent MS " Abd-al Jabbar" contained Jewish Christian info * ref to the corn plucking incident was a direct Tr of the Heb for Piqqah nefesh " the saving of a soul" 5 Cent MS states Paul was Pro Roman and the cause of the Jerusalem temple destruction. Gospels are untrustworthy the earliest views of the Ebionites are in the "Panarion 30:16:6-9 by Epiphanius
The Mythmaker Descent of the Divine Saviour The Doctrine of Paul; Good versus Evil this gnosticism predates Christianity Paul's Epistles are gnostic Paul refers dramatically to the evil powers as "Gods" see I Cor.2:8 Arxonton tou aionos touto supernatural powers eg Romans.8:38 evil God II Cor.4:4 Paul's dualims is not Judaic it is Gnostic but he did not accept the demiurge Paul asserted the Torah came from angels Gal.3:19-20 diatageis = ordained No Jewish sources only Gnostic say anyone but God gave Moses the Torah. acts.7:53 and Heb2:23 are the only other 2 ref to angels as authors of the Torah in the NT but they are both based upon Paul's earlier ref. Paul stated the prophets were all Proto-Christians * The essence of Paul's faith is that "the Law cannot save" "only the sacrifice of Jesus can save" Thus his affinity to Gnostic Antinomianism the Church had thus to develop a new Canon Law Pauline Law rejected the safeguards of women "Rabbinic law forbid evidence obtained under duress " and protected the rights of women. * Gk mystery religions., Paul borrowed from them the idea of a ressurected God which in Gnostic thought brings down to man knowledge. Paul taught however, that by the sacrifice of this God ie. of Jesus and by the sharing of this sacrifice as in the Gk mystery cults. Christians could be saved by the power of this God. The Gnostics were accused of Docetism ie. to appear or to seem as if they refuted the death of Christ on the cross. A combination of Gnosticsm and Mystery religion = Pauline Christianity with Paul adding Judaism for the historical value of tradition which it gave to his new religion. * The hostility towards sex in Paul's thought is not based upon Judaic practice eg. as Rabbi's encouraged marriage chastity was considered a sin * It was also considerably later than the time of Paul that women were no longer allowed to sit with the men in the Synagogue and were placed in the seperate gallery. Women also held high office in the Synagogue as we know from the title Archisynagogiassa and presbytera it was Paul who helped initiate anti-semitism.
FootnotesThe Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity Hyam, Maccoby, Harper San Francisco: 1986
i did meet one person in holland michiganwho is excessive in her christian devotion.
but as for me i did find a church that had "Good Donuts" and free coffee
In Your Presence, by Deb TrammellDeb TrammellSep 22, 2007
In Your Presence
The angels stand at attention around Your magnificent throne
In your presence God, not one stands alone
The sound of praise, in wonder, is music to Your ears
In this place of safety, You wipe from us, our tears
In Your presence, there is no confusion or strife, that dwells here
As we confess from our heart and give You each and every fear
In Your presence there is precious awe and unspeakable joy
You see no distinction between us, there is no girl or boy
In Your presence, we become saturated, one with You
As You fill our essence with Your glory, this You continue to do
This place of Your throne is indescribable, so calm and serene This is no fantasy,
You reach deep within us, the place we do dream
You plant within us Your desire, for this and every day
We do not second guess You, we speak what You give, us to say
To You be all the glory, we give you all the praise
As You bind up the brokenhearted and the dead spirit,
You do raise You reach, into our darkness, this, is the place we meet
You overflow with kindness and mercy, as we bow at Your feet
Oh Lord our God You are so holy, so wonderful
You are Nothing in this world can compare to You, nothing can, by far
In this place of Your throne, this is the place to stay, to be Hinds feet on high places is what
You have given us, to see
Debra McGee Trammell10-25-06 Psalms 148:2
Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.
Psalms 150:1-21 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; Habakkuk 3:19The LORD God [is] my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' [feet], and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments.
NKJVThe LORD God is my strength;He will make my feet like deer's feet,And He will make me walk on my high hills.... Deb's Poetryhttp://poetrypoem.com/voicesofthelord
FootnotesThe Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity Hyam, Maccoby, Harper San Francisco: 1986
i found this book kind of an interesting read..
i mention this because u quoted paul in your religion article.
(Do u have any experience direct experience with communication with either the Holy Spirit, or familiar spirits?)
or do you know of any in your area..
I knew a "spiritualist in benton harbor.. who could hear from familar spirits.. but i think he's dead now..
The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of ChristianityHyam Maccoby: Harper San Francisco 1986
I have included Maccoby's work because it contrasts well with Brandon's critical hypothesis that most traditional scholarship on this topic fails to cover the "context" that is the "historical context" of events within Judea at this time under oppressive Roman rule.
The Rabbinical and Talmudic references available to a Jewish scholar also provide independent sources.
Few Christians are even aware that perhaps the most important proponent of a non orthodox type of Jewish belief was never even in verbal contact with the man called Jesus in fact, Paul never met Jesus and yet he claimed to be a direct interpreter of his teaching.
The Problem of Paul Paul never met Jesus, they did not know each other. N.T. earliest writings are Paul's letters written A.D. 50-60 the Gospels were written about A.D.70 to 110. Paul's birthplace was in Tarsus, Acts. 9:11, 21:39, and 22:3 he claims he is from the tribe of Benjamin see Romans. II:2, and was a Pharisee according to Phillipians 3:5 claims he studied under Gamaliel Acts. 22:3 * it is important to note that Paul himself never mentions that he was a student of Gamaliel.
Stephen was murdered and Paul is implicated in his death see Acts. 8:1. Paul harries the church and siezes Christians, Acts. 8:3. At the time of Paul's activities the High Priest was a Sadducee not a Pharisee! Paul claims he was a Roman citizen by birth meaning his father also was a Roman citizen.
He was, however, flogged several times see Acts.26, and II Corinthians 11:24 " Five times I have recieved at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one.25 Three times I have been beaten with rods; once I was stoned....(he was flogged in total five times) this is problematical as under Roman law Roman citizens were not flogged. see the best modern effort to make Paul a Pharisee in W.D. Davies Paul and Rabbinic Judaism.
Pharasees, Sadducees and Ebionites:Paul was never a Rabbi ( ie. Pharisee ) he was a police officer for the Sadducee party in Jerusalem under the High Priest. Jesus and his followers were members of the Pharisee sect. Both James and Peter who founded the church after Jesus died were Nazarenes definately a Jewish sect.
It was Paul who founded the new religion called Christianity. * Epiphaneus in his book "Heresies" Testified that Paul had no Pharisee background but that he was the son of Gentile parents who converted to Judaism in Tarsus. The Ebionites were the true successors of Jesus the word in Hebrew means the poor.
The PhariseesPharisees noted for their scholarship, fairness, and leniancy in the law, see Josephus (Ant: 13:294) Torah Relgious teaching and Written and Oral Law. Through the Halakah (Going) and Aggadah (Telling) Christ is the Gk form of the Hebrew word for Messiah or the annointed one ie. the King.
The Sadduccees rejected as heretical by the Pharisees because they rejected the Oral Law and were more concerned with the Status quo. The Sadduccees held three things to be important the Old Testament the Temple and The Priesthood. The Pharisees were leaders concerned with being Rabbi's whereas the Sadduccees were more concerned with being ireus the ireus were accepted by the Pharisees as leaders ie. as didaskos Pharisees were qualified as lawyers and teachers in the Midrash , Torah, and Talmud.
They were the favourite of the people. By 160 B.C. the Ptolemic Greeks had centralized power in the "ireus Rank and file priests were Pharisees they really held the power among the people. The Essenes began a movement against the ireus for bieng corrupt Jesus said regarding the Sabbath and observation of the Law " The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath " this is a famous Pharisee source, part of an argument that saving a life takes presedence over the Sabbath.
Was Jesus a Pharisee?Yes see (Mark12. 28-34) Jesus is speaking to a lawyer (meaning a Pharisee) in a (friendly discussion) * in Mathew the story is edited to make a Pharisee look very critical of Jesus.* Pharisee teaching:
The 2 statements Jesus makes are an exact reference to Deuteronomy and to Leviticus and are Pharisee teachings; as follows:A) Shema Hear O Israel the Lord our God is the only Lord, love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.B) Love your neighbour as yourself.
Rabbi Hillel and Rabbi Akiba both taught that this was the principal of Judaism upon which everything else depended. These two men were the greatest sages of Pharisee thought. In the Gospels an attempt is made to state the Pharisees accused Jesus of healing on the Sabbath against the Jewish laws when in fact there are laws which support these very acts of Jesus. see. Mark3:6 and Matt.12:14 In Mark 3:6 the reference is to partisans of Herod Antipas they must be Sadduccees! Mark 12:18-27
Ressurection from the dead is a Pharisee belief. Luke 13:31 At that time a number of Pharisees came to him and said, " You should leave this place and go on your way, Herod is planning to kill you. " Jesus is shown in this reference to be a friend of the Pharisees and therefore it cannot be an interpolation or a late insertion it must be true. Messiah= anointed ie. King of Davidic line this is not a blasphemy.
Exodus 21:19 Doctors bills and loss of employment must be paid for by the guilty party to an injury. * an eye for an eye refers to monetary compensation. Mark 7:19 Jesus declared all foods to be clean. ( is this an interpolation or mistranslation?) see the word Brwmata = foods? Mark 1:43 Jesus expressly commands a leper to follow the laws of purity. Mark 2 the corn plucking incident. * Jesus did not break the law as the men were very hungry ie. a sense of emergency has been removed.
Why was Jesus Crucified?Luke 23:2 And they began to accuse him, saying, " We found this man perverting our nation, and forbidding us to give tribute to Caesar, and saying that he himself is Christ a king." The actual charge was that he claimed to be King and forbid people to give tribute to CaesarJohn 19:12 Upon this Pilate sought to release him, but the Jews cried out, "If you release him you are not Ceasar's friend; every one who makes himself a king sets himself agianst Ceasar."Acts 5 Gamaliel's actions show that the Pharisees were sympathetic towards Jesus see the reference to his intervention upon the behalf of the disciples in the Sanhedran Sadduccee court.Acts 5:33-40
33 When they heard this they were enraged and wanted to kill them. 34 But Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, held in honour by all the people, stood up and ordered the men to be put outside for a while. 35 And he said to them, "Men of Israel, take care what you do with these men. 36 For before these days Theu'das arose, giving himself out to be somebody, and a number of men, about four hundred, joined him; but he was slain and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. 37 After him Judas the Galilean arose in the days of the census and drew away some of the people after him; he also perished, and all who followed him were scattered. 38 So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail;39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!" 40 So they took his advice and, when they had called in the apostles, they beat them and charged them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
as Paul a Pharisee?
cts 5 shows that the disturbance was political. Judas of Galilee was a Pharisee Rabbi who founded the Zealot movement against Rome mentioned by Gamaliel.
If the Pharisees were very angry with Jesus and found his teaching to be so agianst the law why did Gamaliel not question him about breaking religous laws?
Gamliel was held in very high regard as a Pharisee. The word saviour in Gk is close to the word Liberator? the word for robber in the NT Gk ie. lsths = a rebel not a robber.
Alleged Rabbinical Style in Paul's Epistles* Pauls elevation of Jesus to divine status was a reversion to paganism to Jews and to Pharisees. kurios= Gk for Lord a heretical title given to Jesus by PaulSchoeps and Klausner are the only scholars to attempt to prove that Paul's Epistles are Pharisaic
( Hyam claims that they failed ). Using the light and heavy arguments of the Pharisaic school Hyam argues that there is only one example from Paul's writing which could be used to support their contention. Examples are found in Romans 7.1-6, Is an example of Paul's very poor legal thinking only the death of the Torah not the body of Christ would make the analogy correct! Targum was in Aramaic as ordinary Jews did not read Hebrew. Regarding the Septuagint Paul always reads from this text but why not from the Hebrew if he was a Pharisee??? eg.Corinthians 15:55 Oh death where is thy victory Oh death where is thy sting? Hosea 13:14 But in Hebrew this passage reads; Oh for your plagues Oh death Oh for your sting Oh grave.
Paul and Stephen ( Saulos kai Stefanou )Acts show Paul acting for the Ireus a Sadduccee and not acting as a Pharisee. Stephen was accused of two things.1) Speaking against the Temple and saying Jesus will destroy it2) Both Jesus and Stephen are portrayed as being tried for something of which they are not actually convicted of; they were killed for a crime they committed in the trial itself. Acts.5 is odd because Gamaliel helps Peter; why would their be any difference between helping Peter and helping Jesus? Hyam feels the text here has been edited. Acts.8 Ref to the persecution of the Church in Jerusalem but why were the leaders allowed to remain? Stephen was leading a schism sect perhaps? Acts.7:59-60 States Paul is a young man a neanou but the Ebionites claim Paul was an adult when he came from Tarsus. Could a young man in Gk adolescent youth lay waste the church and persecute people house to house? Acts.8:1... Acts 7:58 kai ou martures apesento ta imatia autvn para tous podas neanion kaloumenou Saulou
The road to DamaskouActs.9:2Saulos could have had no authority from the arxierei to bring a udas tkai gunaiks eis Ierouslhm his jurisdiction was only over the Temple mount in Ierouslhm The arxierei had no authority to send Saulos into another sunagwgas outside of Judea. Damaskou under the rule of King Aretus IV (9.BC. to A.D.40 ) was an independent kingdom of Nabatae not under Roman rule. Pseudo Clementine Recognitions 1.70 ff. states that Saulos went to Damaskou to arrest Peter. II.Cor. and Acts 9:22-25 Paul's version of events is far more truthfull! Written in AD 55-60 Acts was written about AD 90 and shows the shift from a Political to a Relgious focus. There are four versions of his conversion in Damascus; Acts.9, Acts.22, Acts.26 these are the later accounts. Pauls account is in Gal.1, Romans.7:14 and 8:1 There are contrasts with the Pharisee concept of yetzer ha-tov and yetzer ha-r'a both balance each other both are human. Good and Evil in the Midrash. Rabbah on Ecclesiastes 3:11 Pharisee philosophy of evil versus good; the morality of psychic aggression etc. Saulos created two laws pneuma and sarx and denies the Pharisaic concept of the unity of God: Paul slips and states "We" in ref to the Gentiles in Gal 3:14 ie. is he a Gentile? Ebionites state his parents were Gentiles not Jews. Paul's trade = a leather worker not a tent maker his father in Acts:22-28 is wealthy as a Roman citizen this does not seem true.
The Road to DamascusPaul's version of his Damascus visit written AD 55-60 is much earlier and therefore in most cases more truthfull as to the "political versus the religious nature of these events " than the Acts written much later in AD. 90 *see the shift from A. Political ie. Paul versus the Police chief King Aretus who wished to arrest him for being in Damascus and causing trouble and;B. The later version in Acts where it is the Jews who objected to him ie. it is now a religious account not a political one. Ananias is a respected Jew Acts.22 so why does he baptize Paul? as in Acts.9. Gentiles could become Jews in two ways during this period of time. A. By full conversion;B. By addressing the so called Noahide Laws as required by the Rabbi's; this was the more common procedure adopted by the Gentile converts and they became known as the God-fearers this is probably what Paul originally was. He was by trade a leatherworker not a tentmaker although Skenopoios could also mean tentmaker.
Damascus and AfterPaul has defied the authority of the Jerusalem church apostles; see Gal.1:10-17 He is very conceited and states that he has special status he also claims to have stigmata on his body which was not attested until much later in Church history II Corin.12:2-3
Paul and the EucharistLords prayer is really an old Jewish prayerI Corin 11:23-30contains the first reference to the Eucharist and it is Paul who states plainly that he was the inventor of this tradition. * If Jesus founded the Eucharist why do we not find any reference to it and why was it not practiced in the Jersalem church? * The Gospels were all written after Paul's Epistles. John refers to the shock of the Jewish disciples when they first heard about Paul's Eucharist. Bread then wine is the traditional Jewish meal. Paul's term is Kuriakon Deipnon ie. the Lords supper which = a Gk mystery term for sacred meals. This has been changed by the church to the Eucharist ie. blessing as the church was embarrassed by the connection to the mystery cults proven by this borrowing from the Gk. Hanz Lietzmann indicated long ago that the book of Acts indicates that the Eucharist was not practiced by the Jewish Nazzarines. See Acts.2:42-46 where breaking bread and attending the Temple is shown to be the traditional practice as it is today.
The Jerusalem ChurchIn Acts.2:46 Jesus followers still attend the Temple on a daily basis; * this indicates there was no rival priesthood which could lay claim to authority.If Jesus chose Peter to found his church why was James his brother leader of the Jerusalem Church instead? and further, why did Simon follow him? see Eusebius's list of bishops The ref to the keys of my kingdom is from Isiah where Eliakim is made head of the Sanhedrin with powers to bind and to loose. see Isaiah:19:23 Jesus therefore, is only giving powers to Peter to act as his legal representative not as the founder of a new sect. The priesthood is still monarchial and flows through the blood line. Gibbon states that the first ten leaders of the Christian church were all circumcized Jews while Eusebius states that the first fifteen bishops were circumcised Jews. In Acts.22:12 Ananias of Damascus is no Christian he is described there as a " devout observer of the law and well spoken of by all the Jews of that place." This hardly sounds like a converted Jew! In Acts.21:18-21 James questions Paul re: his efforts to change circumcision and to turn your back upon the Law Johannes Munck Editor of the 20Cent Anchor Bible book of Acts of the Apostles denies the Jewish element of the Jerusalem Jews. See his comments in the Anchor Bible.
The SplitActs purpose is to minimize the conflict between Paul James and Peter The Laws of the sons of Noah known as theNoachim laws used by the Pharisee rabbi's to deal with relations with the Gentiles who wished to become Jews. Reffered to in Acts.15The commandments given by James to Paul regarding relations with the Gentiles were as follows:
To abstain from anything polluted by Idols To abstain from fornication To abstain from anything which had been strangled To abstain from blood
The seven Laws of Noah ( Rabbinical List )Prohibitions against Idolatry Prohibitions against Blasphemy Prohibitions against Fornication Prohibitions against Murder Prohibitions against Robbery Prohibitions against Eating limbs cut from live animals Set up courts of Law * note that Paul was summoned to Jerusalem to give an account of his actions to James and the Elders He was also involved with a confrontation with Peter see Gal.II:11-14 Paul admits in Corin.9:20-22 that he used deception in achieving his goals. He was forced in Acts.21:18-26 to undergo a public humiliation as punishment for his actions in breaking the authority of the Jerusalem Elders in the way he tried to spread his own version of Christianity. He is forced by James to undergo a Nazorean purificatio ritual involving the shaving of the head, baptism payment of fines to the Temple, and the admission that he is a follower and upholder of the Law. Paul agreed to do all this. The Trial of PaulActs.21:27-31The whole of Jerusalem is in an uproar Why the uproar over Paul? if he was such a law abiding Jew? In Acts.17:6-7 the Jews of Thessalonica denounce him to the Roman authorities regarding his trouble making and the efforts by him to stir up trouble against Rome and the claims that there was a rival King. Jesus. ie. he was acting in a political fashion in Acts.21:20-22the Gk word is myriades which means literally tens of thousands not thousands. Claudius Lysius the Roman commandant intervenes on Paul's behalf see his letter to Governor Felix Acts.23-27 * He must have already known about Paul's actions as he was ready to rescue him he was probably informed by Paul's agents. Acts.24:26Paul had a great deal of money with him so Felix invited him often expecting a bribe. At his trial Paul divided the Pharisees and the Sadduccees very perceptively so that he could save his neck.Acts.23:1-10 This trial also shows that the Pharisees supported the Nazoreans. Claudius letter to Felix states however nothing about the riot which supposedly occured at this trial in the Sanhedrin. Assassination attempt. Acts.23:12-15 *Thugs of the high priest about forty in all tried to murder Paul Paul evades capture and a second attempt is made upon his life in Caesarea this time by an agent of the high priest so it is obvious he is wanted for political reasons in Jerusalem.Acts.24:1-9 The high priest's advocate Tertullus charges Paul with disturbing the peace and profaning the Temple, Felix keeps him prisoner for two years in Caesarea until the next Governor Festus arrives . Paul was then sent to Rome by Festus and his destiny is unknown the church claims he was martyred in Rome but there is no proof.
The evidence of the EbionitesRe-Judaization the attempt by 20 Cent scholars to explain the Jerusalem Church. See Matt.5explained as an insertion. S.F.Brandon has shown that the story of the Jerusalem Church leaving for Pella is a fabrication. See The Fall of Jerusalem and the Christian Church, London, 1951. From AD 70 to AD 140 more or less there was no Gentile church in Jerusalem *only in AD 140 was a church errected in the now new Roman city called "Aelia Capitolina", Therefore, there was no continuity this was a Gentile Church as Eusebius states in Ecc.Hist.III .V2-3 * Ebionites; " from the Heb the poor men " despised as heretics by the Catholic Church refused to accept Paul's doctrines. Nazarenes = the original name of the sect of Jesus see Acts.24:5 The term for Christians came from AntiochActs.11:26. In Rabbinical writings the name for this sect of Jesus is Notzrim. The Ebionite belief in the thousand year reign is a sign of their continuation of Nazorean ideology. In the Pseudo Clementine Writings falsely attributed to Clement I a core of writing is found which is 2 Cent Syrian see, F.C.Baur 19Cent and Simon Magus is Paul! An Arabic MS discovered by Shlomo Pines showed that a 10 Cent MS " Abd-al Jabbar" contained Jewish Christian info * ref to the corn plucking incident was a direct Tr of the Heb for Piqqah nefesh " the saving of a soul" 5 Cent MS states Paul was Pro Roman and the cause of the Jerusalem temple destruction. Gospels are untrustworthy the earliest views of the Ebionites are in the "Panarion 30:16:6-9 by Epiphanius
The Mythmaker Descent of the Divine Saviour The Doctrine of Paul; Good versus Evil this gnosticism predates Christianity Paul's Epistles are gnostic Paul refers dramatically to the evil powers as "Gods" see I Cor.2:8 Arxonton tou aionos touto supernatural powers eg Romans.8:38 evil God II Cor.4:4 Paul's dualims is not Judaic it is Gnostic but he did not accept the demiurge Paul asserted the Torah came from angels Gal.3:19-20 diatageis = ordained No Jewish sources only Gnostic say anyone but God gave Moses the Torah. acts.7:53 and Heb2:23 are the only other 2 ref to angels as authors of the Torah in the NT but they are both based upon Paul's earlier ref. Paul stated the prophets were all Proto-Christians * The essence of Paul's faith is that "the Law cannot save" "only the sacrifice of Jesus can save" Thus his affinity to Gnostic Antinomianism the Church had thus to develop a new Canon Law Pauline Law rejected the safeguards of women "Rabbinic law forbid evidence obtained under duress " and protected the rights of women. * Gk mystery religions., Paul borrowed from them the idea of a ressurected God which in Gnostic thought brings down to man knowledge. Paul taught however, that by the sacrifice of this God ie. of Jesus and by the sharing of this sacrifice as in the Gk mystery cults. Christians could be saved by the power of this God. The Gnostics were accused of Docetism ie. to appear or to seem as if they refuted the death of Christ on the cross. A combination of Gnosticsm and Mystery religion = Pauline Christianity with Paul adding Judaism for the historical value of tradition which it gave to his new religion. * The hostility towards sex in Paul's thought is not based upon Judaic practice eg. as Rabbi's encouraged marriage chastity was considered a sin * It was also considerably later than the time of Paul that women were no longer allowed to sit with the men in the Synagogue and were placed in the seperate gallery. Women also held high office in the Synagogue as we know from the title Archisynagogiassa and presbytera it was Paul who helped initiate anti-semitism.
FootnotesThe Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity Hyam, Maccoby, Harper San Francisco: 1986
thermotron
Reply to Liar
Note of Explanation: This started out as a short response to a MySpace "friend request" (gladly accepted) from someone calling himself "liar2u ." "Liar" sorely attacked one of the companies I had listed in my bio there, as well as "michigans west coast hypocrits" [sic]. It was not my intention to refute any of that, since I'm not into online "pissing matches," but it did occur to me that something I had previously written (see I've become progressively more disgusted with religion.) could be similarly misconstrued by others. So an explanation of that seemed to be in order. My experience at the company in question was also much different than what Liar reported, so I felt inclined to share something about that also.
Hello Liar ~About Thermotron Corporation ~I worked at Thermotron for eight of its early years. It wasn't that way then. We were simple, happy, very successfully growing, but not very profitable. We were also not very shrewd or slick, so didn't have much choice other than openness and inclusiveness.The owner was Chuck Conrad, who was also the company's founder. The good opinion of his employees was more important to him than money. I don't say that in praise. It was more a figment of his personality organization than a real desire to be thoughtful and nice, but it all came out the same anyway.
All of us Executive Committee members put together wouldn't have made one good manager. Thus, although very successful in terms of growth, technological and market leadership, and all that, we weren't making any money, and the bank finally threw in the towel when the debt began to exceed $2.5-million. At that point they forced Chuck to bring in some professional management talent. That was the beginning of the end for me, and I left a year and a half later to start my own business.
Not long after I resigned, Chuck sold a controlling interest in Thermotron to a holding company from Wisconsin.
By virtue of their professional management talent, the company's financial situation quickly, and significantly improved. A few years after that, Chuck finally sold off his remaining share, and exited with a well-deserved $8.5-million. Over the years that followed, he donated large chunks of that to various projects in the Ludington area and elsewhere.
He and I took a final nostalgic tour of the place on the day he received his final payment.
After Chuck's exit, I didn't follow the company's fortunes much. I was then doing business with their competitors, so they were not comfortable with the idea of my having access to any inside information. I did a couple of deals with them, but they were both unpleasant experiences, so I kept away after that.
Evidently you had a bad experience at Thermotron.
I'm sorry to know that, but am aware that others also suffered some bad times there under the regimes that followed ours. On the other hand, there are others who survived and made out quite well, and I have often thought that had I been more mature, personality-wise and in a business sense, I probably would have fared equally well, and would be much better off in retirement than what I have to look forward to now. That's just an observation, not a lament.
Note of Explanation: This started out as a short response to a MySpace "friend request" (gladly accepted) from someone calling himself "liar2u ." "Liar" sorely attacked one of the companies I had listed in my bio there, as well as "michigans west coast hypocrits" [sic]. It was not my intention to refute any of that, since I'm not into online "pissing matches," but it did occur to me that something I had previously written (see I've become progressively more disgusted with religion.) could be similarly misconstrued by others. So an explanation of that seemed to be in order. My experience at the company in question was also much different than what Liar reported, so I felt inclined to share something about that also.
Hello Liar ~About Thermotron Corporation ~I worked at Thermotron for eight of its early years. It wasn't that way then. We were simple, happy, very successfully growing, but not very profitable. We were also not very shrewd or slick, so didn't have much choice other than openness and inclusiveness.The owner was Chuck Conrad, who was also the company's founder. The good opinion of his employees was more important to him than money. I don't say that in praise. It was more a figment of his personality organization than a real desire to be thoughtful and nice, but it all came out the same anyway.
All of us Executive Committee members put together wouldn't have made one good manager. Thus, although very successful in terms of growth, technological and market leadership, and all that, we weren't making any money, and the bank finally threw in the towel when the debt began to exceed $2.5-million. At that point they forced Chuck to bring in some professional management talent. That was the beginning of the end for me, and I left a year and a half later to start my own business.
Not long after I resigned, Chuck sold a controlling interest in Thermotron to a holding company from Wisconsin.
By virtue of their professional management talent, the company's financial situation quickly, and significantly improved. A few years after that, Chuck finally sold off his remaining share, and exited with a well-deserved $8.5-million. Over the years that followed, he donated large chunks of that to various projects in the Ludington area and elsewhere.
He and I took a final nostalgic tour of the place on the day he received his final payment.
After Chuck's exit, I didn't follow the company's fortunes much. I was then doing business with their competitors, so they were not comfortable with the idea of my having access to any inside information. I did a couple of deals with them, but they were both unpleasant experiences, so I kept away after that.
Evidently you had a bad experience at Thermotron.
I'm sorry to know that, but am aware that others also suffered some bad times there under the regimes that followed ours. On the other hand, there are others who survived and made out quite well, and I have often thought that had I been more mature, personality-wise and in a business sense, I probably would have fared equally well, and would be much better off in retirement than what I have to look forward to now. That's just an observation, not a lament.
Reply to Liar
Note of Explanation:
This started out as a short response to a MySpace "friend request" (gladly accepted) from someone calling himself "liar2u ."
"Liar" sorely attacked one of the companies I had listed in my bio there,
as well as "michigans west coast hypocrits" [sic]. It was not my intention to refute any of that, since I'm not into online "pissing matches," but it did occur to me that something I had previously written (see I've become progressively more disgusted with religion.) could be similarly misconstrued by others. So an explanation of that seemed to be in order. My experience at the company in question was also much different than what Liar reported, so I felt inclined to share something about that also.
Hello Liar ~About Thermotron Corporation ~I worked at Thermotron for eight of its early years. It wasn't that way then. We were simple, happy, very successfully growing, but not very profitable.
We were also not very shrewd or slick, so didn't have much choice other than openness and inclusiveness.
The owner was Chuck Conrad, who was also the company's founder.
The good opinion of his employees was more important to him than money.
I don't say that in praise. It was more a figment of his personality organization than a real desire to be thoughtful and nice, but it all came out the same anyway.All of us Executive Committee members put together wouldn't have made one good manager.
Thus, although very successful in terms of growth, technological and market leadership, and all that, we weren't making any money, and the bank finally threw in the towel when the debt began to exceed $2.5-million.
At that point they forced Chuck to bring in some professional management talent.
That was the beginning of the end for me, and I left a year and a half later to start my own business.
Not long after I resigned, Chuck sold a controlling interest in Thermotron to a holding company from Wisconsin.
By virtue of their professional management talent, the company's financial situation quickly, and significantly improved. A few years after that, Chuck finally sold off his remaining share, and exited with a well-deserved $8.5-million. Over the years that followed, he donated large chunks of that to various projects in the Ludington area and elsewhere. He and I took a final nostalgic tour of the place on the day he received his final payment.After Chuck's exit, I didn't follow the company's fortunes much.
I was then doing business with their competitors, so they were not comfortable with the idea of my having access to any inside information. I did a couple of deals with them, but they were both unpleasant experiences, so I kept away after that.Evidently you had a bad experience at Thermotron.
I'm sorry to know that, but am aware that others also suffered some bad times there under the regimes that followed ours.
On the other hand, there are others who survived and made out quite well, and I have often thought that had I been more mature, personality-wise and in a business sense, I probably would have fared equally well, and would be much better off in retirement than what I have to look forward to now.
That's just an observation, not a lament.
Note of Explanation:
This started out as a short response to a MySpace "friend request" (gladly accepted) from someone calling himself "liar2u ."
"Liar" sorely attacked one of the companies I had listed in my bio there,
as well as "michigans west coast hypocrits" [sic]. It was not my intention to refute any of that, since I'm not into online "pissing matches," but it did occur to me that something I had previously written (see I've become progressively more disgusted with religion.) could be similarly misconstrued by others. So an explanation of that seemed to be in order. My experience at the company in question was also much different than what Liar reported, so I felt inclined to share something about that also.
Hello Liar ~About Thermotron Corporation ~I worked at Thermotron for eight of its early years. It wasn't that way then. We were simple, happy, very successfully growing, but not very profitable.
We were also not very shrewd or slick, so didn't have much choice other than openness and inclusiveness.
The owner was Chuck Conrad, who was also the company's founder.
The good opinion of his employees was more important to him than money.
I don't say that in praise. It was more a figment of his personality organization than a real desire to be thoughtful and nice, but it all came out the same anyway.All of us Executive Committee members put together wouldn't have made one good manager.
Thus, although very successful in terms of growth, technological and market leadership, and all that, we weren't making any money, and the bank finally threw in the towel when the debt began to exceed $2.5-million.
At that point they forced Chuck to bring in some professional management talent.
That was the beginning of the end for me, and I left a year and a half later to start my own business.
Not long after I resigned, Chuck sold a controlling interest in Thermotron to a holding company from Wisconsin.
By virtue of their professional management talent, the company's financial situation quickly, and significantly improved. A few years after that, Chuck finally sold off his remaining share, and exited with a well-deserved $8.5-million. Over the years that followed, he donated large chunks of that to various projects in the Ludington area and elsewhere. He and I took a final nostalgic tour of the place on the day he received his final payment.After Chuck's exit, I didn't follow the company's fortunes much.
I was then doing business with their competitors, so they were not comfortable with the idea of my having access to any inside information. I did a couple of deals with them, but they were both unpleasant experiences, so I kept away after that.Evidently you had a bad experience at Thermotron.
I'm sorry to know that, but am aware that others also suffered some bad times there under the regimes that followed ours.
On the other hand, there are others who survived and made out quite well, and I have often thought that had I been more mature, personality-wise and in a business sense, I probably would have fared equally well, and would be much better off in retirement than what I have to look forward to now.
That's just an observation, not a lament.
thermotron
hello.. \
when u were at t land..
did u know Bob wiley..
who told his inner circle that it was ok to lie to him about what is going on so long as they don't get him in trouble..
and the job of the service guy was to get the customer to sign off on the equipment..
it didn't matter if it worked or not.. just tell them it's under warranty..
Rom wiley .. not there.. told me he was a good liar like his daddy.
How about Tom Bannach.. who said "his thing" was:
1. It's ok to lie cheat steal and embezzle and defraud your co worker a little bit everyday because every one is like that..
PLUS::
2. if some one does a good job .. he will lie and say they did a bad job.
3. If some one does a bad job he will lie and say they did a good job..
4. I some one needs help he will lie and say they don't need help.
5. if someone dosen't need help he wil lie and say they need help..
6.. every one at t-land will believe his lies..
Tom Patterson (NOw at espec)
After u lie cheat and defraud the first 500 people or so .. then it starts to get easer..
Don Bench Russles tech products..
Every company has their problems .. and at his every one complains about the wages.. because he dosen't really give much in job performance raises..
he is really a stepping stone company..
if a person "knows nothing" they can learn something there.
Bill bench.. It doesn't matter if the equipment works or not just get the customer to sign off on the equipment so we can get our finale payment.
John tenbrink... Old Bob wiley is as smart as a fox.. because he believes my lies..
when he was at Boeing airplane company for 6 months he spent most days starting drinking at lunch and stop about midnight or 2am..
during that drinking spree he married a kansas girl..
He daily falsied his working time..
He found it puzzling that Boeing would not hire him as a full time employee..
He encouraged his co-workers to copy his behavior .. because he didn't like to drink alone..
when he followed bob wiley to sexton/aspec... he was pulling the same fraud there...
as marty rich .. said .. he would get his co-workers to be part of his embezzlement game .. then run behind their back .. and rat them out.. So he got introduced to sales
But now john is at envirotronics..
john really should have gone to prison ..
but every one bobless wiley liked was a liar thief and embezzler..now he worked his way to a sales position at environtronics..
woopie .. once again.. a male prostitute in sales.. how surprising,,.
At thermotron.. the average embezzlement
when tom Bannach was on the west coast was about 15 to 20 thoussand..
Hil sysbesma said that robbery thief and embezzlement was not really stealing ,,..
it called "WORKING THE SYSTEM"
MARK LAMERS..bragged that gee didn't everyone know that good people don't work at thermotron for very long..
DId u know any one at thermotron with good character??
ACCORDING to tom patterson, bill wybenga and others ..
it's easy to find liars and people to lie for u at thermotron.. and as tom patters said at thermotron people lie about what is going on even when they don't have too!!
Hmmm.. I FOUND THIS TRUE ON THE WEST COAST WITH MITCH KERR a former thermotron employee
i haven't been at a place with such a large number of criminal psycopaths
DOUG MAHN
According to Doug Mahn, senior vibration application engineer at Thermotron..
when i worked this this character,
on the LItton project in california.. all he had to do was duplicate the effort of an idenical project at Boeing Military in wichita..
But instead he was lying to Jim McGrew at Litton..and his co-workers and he failed to tell any one he was the "project manager" this miss managed project which lingered on for almost 9 months..
i guess it was about a 700,000 thousand dollar project..
and when LItton Ind. bought the addition follow on contract from Sexton Espec with tom patterson as the sales man...Thermotron's price for the follow on contract ws about 500.000 thousand dollars more...
Jim Mc Grew would say "tell your people not to get greedy"
Doug Mahn then call up the west coast and said "we" didn';t have to give them good service ..
which lasted until 6 months later.. when another contract came up..
like most of thermotrons sales man.. he was a liar and a slander.. and a swindler
2:09 PM
Anonymous said... Thermotron Dan Okeefe..
According to Tom Patterson the 1st Bob less Wiley national service liar.
Dan Okeefe brought a new and greater level of lying, deceite and fraud to the industry..
Dan Okeefe told him his job was to lie and cheat his co-workers which he did..UNtil dan Okeefe did it to him and he realized even he wasn't in the inner circle..and had stupid on his forhead and quit.
Roger Cannery who replaced tom patterson was a liar, slander and thief and embezzler protector
but he didn't like to swallow when he gave dan a B JOb.
So dan fired him and got Dave WaterField as his next liar and slander.. he said he believes the lies of anyone who gives him a paycheck.. because he is a WHORE.
He Was replaced with Ron Wiley.. who bragged at what a good liar he is..
The main thing that charles conrad brought to west michigan is evidence of the spin off companies , envirotronics, Russles tech products, sexton/aspec/ and turners company ESS testing .... technology jobs..
but i have not worked with such a consistant group of liars thieves and embezzlers then the different people i have worked with at these companies..
This is why west michigan is called the "west coast hypocrites"where everyone is phoney..when it comes to religious morality being a guidence factor..
as John tenbrink said ..gee i didn't want to lie ... but they told me too.. so what could i dooooo...
when u were at t land..
did u know Bob wiley..
who told his inner circle that it was ok to lie to him about what is going on so long as they don't get him in trouble..
and the job of the service guy was to get the customer to sign off on the equipment..
it didn't matter if it worked or not.. just tell them it's under warranty..
Rom wiley .. not there.. told me he was a good liar like his daddy.
How about Tom Bannach.. who said "his thing" was:
1. It's ok to lie cheat steal and embezzle and defraud your co worker a little bit everyday because every one is like that..
PLUS::
2. if some one does a good job .. he will lie and say they did a bad job.
3. If some one does a bad job he will lie and say they did a good job..
4. I some one needs help he will lie and say they don't need help.
5. if someone dosen't need help he wil lie and say they need help..
6.. every one at t-land will believe his lies..
Tom Patterson (NOw at espec)
After u lie cheat and defraud the first 500 people or so .. then it starts to get easer..
Don Bench Russles tech products..
Every company has their problems .. and at his every one complains about the wages.. because he dosen't really give much in job performance raises..
he is really a stepping stone company..
if a person "knows nothing" they can learn something there.
Bill bench.. It doesn't matter if the equipment works or not just get the customer to sign off on the equipment so we can get our finale payment.
John tenbrink... Old Bob wiley is as smart as a fox.. because he believes my lies..
when he was at Boeing airplane company for 6 months he spent most days starting drinking at lunch and stop about midnight or 2am..
during that drinking spree he married a kansas girl..
He daily falsied his working time..
He found it puzzling that Boeing would not hire him as a full time employee..
He encouraged his co-workers to copy his behavior .. because he didn't like to drink alone..
when he followed bob wiley to sexton/aspec... he was pulling the same fraud there...
as marty rich .. said .. he would get his co-workers to be part of his embezzlement game .. then run behind their back .. and rat them out.. So he got introduced to sales
But now john is at envirotronics..
john really should have gone to prison ..
but every one bobless wiley liked was a liar thief and embezzler..now he worked his way to a sales position at environtronics..
woopie .. once again.. a male prostitute in sales.. how surprising,,.
At thermotron.. the average embezzlement
when tom Bannach was on the west coast was about 15 to 20 thoussand..
Hil sysbesma said that robbery thief and embezzlement was not really stealing ,,..
it called "WORKING THE SYSTEM"
MARK LAMERS..bragged that gee didn't everyone know that good people don't work at thermotron for very long..
DId u know any one at thermotron with good character??
ACCORDING to tom patterson, bill wybenga and others ..
it's easy to find liars and people to lie for u at thermotron.. and as tom patters said at thermotron people lie about what is going on even when they don't have too!!
Hmmm.. I FOUND THIS TRUE ON THE WEST COAST WITH MITCH KERR a former thermotron employee
i haven't been at a place with such a large number of criminal psycopaths
DOUG MAHN
According to Doug Mahn, senior vibration application engineer at Thermotron..
when i worked this this character,
on the LItton project in california.. all he had to do was duplicate the effort of an idenical project at Boeing Military in wichita..
But instead he was lying to Jim McGrew at Litton..and his co-workers and he failed to tell any one he was the "project manager" this miss managed project which lingered on for almost 9 months..
i guess it was about a 700,000 thousand dollar project..
and when LItton Ind. bought the addition follow on contract from Sexton Espec with tom patterson as the sales man...Thermotron's price for the follow on contract ws about 500.000 thousand dollars more...
Jim Mc Grew would say "tell your people not to get greedy"
Doug Mahn then call up the west coast and said "we" didn';t have to give them good service ..
which lasted until 6 months later.. when another contract came up..
like most of thermotrons sales man.. he was a liar and a slander.. and a swindler
2:09 PM
Anonymous said... Thermotron Dan Okeefe..
According to Tom Patterson the 1st Bob less Wiley national service liar.
Dan Okeefe brought a new and greater level of lying, deceite and fraud to the industry..
Dan Okeefe told him his job was to lie and cheat his co-workers which he did..UNtil dan Okeefe did it to him and he realized even he wasn't in the inner circle..and had stupid on his forhead and quit.
Roger Cannery who replaced tom patterson was a liar, slander and thief and embezzler protector
but he didn't like to swallow when he gave dan a B JOb.
So dan fired him and got Dave WaterField as his next liar and slander.. he said he believes the lies of anyone who gives him a paycheck.. because he is a WHORE.
He Was replaced with Ron Wiley.. who bragged at what a good liar he is..
The main thing that charles conrad brought to west michigan is evidence of the spin off companies , envirotronics, Russles tech products, sexton/aspec/ and turners company ESS testing .... technology jobs..
but i have not worked with such a consistant group of liars thieves and embezzlers then the different people i have worked with at these companies..
This is why west michigan is called the "west coast hypocrites"where everyone is phoney..when it comes to religious morality being a guidence factor..
as John tenbrink said ..gee i didn't want to lie ... but they told me too.. so what could i dooooo...
Wednesday, September 5, 2007
thermotron looks good
looks good
1, sign an aggrement that u will never work for another company like this,
2, ask hil sysbesma about the 1.2 million dollar law suit dan o'keef did to him , because he quit and worked for some one else.. he is at tenny now..
3.say hi for meask dean tripp... after 15 years, his job was to lie to the customer and his co-workers, to find out what was going on...
he's in new mexico.. frangington... tell him i said hi
4. greg johnson.. a tom bannash clone... he robbed the customer and stold about 50, 000 dollars and stole every thing in the office.
5,. .but as basnnish said .. it;s ok to lie cheat and steal a little bit every day.. cuz every one he know is there, and besides everyone will believe his lies..
6..tom patterson.. who's job when he replaced Bob Wiley was to lie and defraud his co workers.. he said dan o keef and the weir queer boys brought a new and greater level of lieing and deciet to holland and the industry..tell him i said hi
1, sign an aggrement that u will never work for another company like this,
2, ask hil sysbesma about the 1.2 million dollar law suit dan o'keef did to him , because he quit and worked for some one else.. he is at tenny now..
3.say hi for meask dean tripp... after 15 years, his job was to lie to the customer and his co-workers, to find out what was going on...
he's in new mexico.. frangington... tell him i said hi
4. greg johnson.. a tom bannash clone... he robbed the customer and stold about 50, 000 dollars and stole every thing in the office.
5,. .but as basnnish said .. it;s ok to lie cheat and steal a little bit every day.. cuz every one he know is there, and besides everyone will believe his lies..
6..tom patterson.. who's job when he replaced Bob Wiley was to lie and defraud his co workers.. he said dan o keef and the weir queer boys brought a new and greater level of lieing and deciet to holland and the industry..tell him i said hi
Sunday, September 2, 2007
jim roelofs bo bjarno
Jim Roelofs is here but kicking back a little, we have tried to give him more responsibility several times and he says "No thanks". He's reached that stage where he realizes responsibility has more drawbacks that positives and is real comfortable where he is - smart. It amazes me how things repeat themselves and if you just pay attention to history you have a pretty good idea of what's going to happen next.Hope things are well with you .Tom P.
interesting that jim r is with u.. because "Curt" who replaced bo bjarno.. said all he did at thermotron was walk around with a good grip on his ankles..
When i told chryel the 4th screcurtary that left the office, to mention to tom bannash .. that bo was drunk every day and it scared her.. all jim did was conspire to defraud him..
I had worked with him for 2 years drunk and asked dick Mc Kinley about it .. when he was hired..
as Bo bjarno style was get the customer or any one drunk .. and then find out how much money they had in the budget.. he was a flaming alcholic/..
and with greg johnson the pet thief, embezzler and banniah's false wittness.. it was a pretty horrible place to work..
interesting that jim r is with u.. because "Curt" who replaced bo bjarno.. said all he did at thermotron was walk around with a good grip on his ankles..
When i told chryel the 4th screcurtary that left the office, to mention to tom bannash .. that bo was drunk every day and it scared her.. all jim did was conspire to defraud him..
I had worked with him for 2 years drunk and asked dick Mc Kinley about it .. when he was hired..
as Bo bjarno style was get the customer or any one drunk .. and then find out how much money they had in the budget.. he was a flaming alcholic/..
and with greg johnson the pet thief, embezzler and banniah's false wittness.. it was a pretty horrible place to work..
fred plont and ed flowers
To: tpatterson@espec.com
Subject: dick alverson,
hil sys,
the wheel turns
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 14:06:28 -0500
hello,, i spoke with dick last week and was surprised to find he was now 62, and semi retired,,
And with Hil as a west coast sales rep for lunair.. the wheel turns..
but often hil was honest with me and that was a plus.. after the fact of course
he did say " a man's got to do what a man's got to do"in retrospect at least it was something to learn from.
I try to follow the"if you can't say something good..." philosophy so I won't say too much about
Tom i tried that and the punk thief i worked with said
" i sure made him look good"
and when i told Fred Plant that
then E flowers ended up getting mad at me, now according to fred .. he and ed .. embezzled about 10,000 to 15,000 per year..
and he didn't need to work a union job in california with ENSECO and rendy bunn.. because he now only worked 3 or 4 hours a day and charged thermotron 8 to 12 hours a day.. so he was making the same money as them..
and besides .. he said everyone he knows is a liar and a thief..
Why because Fred was always a pet and a channel.. and he told me
Weellll Makr lamer told me that Good People don't work at thermotron for very long
hemmm any wayIt was for me a difficult place to be.
Subject: dick alverson,
hil sys,
the wheel turns
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 14:06:28 -0500
hello,, i spoke with dick last week and was surprised to find he was now 62, and semi retired,,
And with Hil as a west coast sales rep for lunair.. the wheel turns..
but often hil was honest with me and that was a plus.. after the fact of course
he did say " a man's got to do what a man's got to do"in retrospect at least it was something to learn from.
I try to follow the"if you can't say something good..." philosophy so I won't say too much about
Tom i tried that and the punk thief i worked with said
" i sure made him look good"
and when i told Fred Plant that
then E flowers ended up getting mad at me, now according to fred .. he and ed .. embezzled about 10,000 to 15,000 per year..
and he didn't need to work a union job in california with ENSECO and rendy bunn.. because he now only worked 3 or 4 hours a day and charged thermotron 8 to 12 hours a day.. so he was making the same money as them..
and besides .. he said everyone he knows is a liar and a thief..
Why because Fred was always a pet and a channel.. and he told me
Weellll Makr lamer told me that Good People don't work at thermotron for very long
hemmm any wayIt was for me a difficult place to be.
tom bannash, thermotron
Thursday, March 22, 2007
banish the blasphimer
The Bannish Inquisition it's ok to lie cheat steal and defrad people because every one is like that..\ hil sysbesma.. i have the same problem as tom bannais.. i want to lie cheat steal and defraud people ... and i still want people to like me.. besides .. robbery thief and embezzlement is'nt really stealing.. it's called "working the system.."
banish the blasphimer
The Bannish Inquisition it's ok to lie cheat steal and defrad people because every one is like that..\ hil sysbesma.. i have the same problem as tom bannais.. i want to lie cheat steal and defraud people ... and i still want people to like me.. besides .. robbery thief and embezzlement is'nt really stealing.. it's called "working the system.."
share your thermotron photos
Are you:. The owner or an employee; Customer ... Photos (0). Share your photos of Thermotron Industries. Upload now. ...local.yahoo.com/details?id=16433900 - 21k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
sexton vs thermotron
Sexton v. Thermotron Industries, Inc., No. 130849 (Mich. Ct. App. 1992) (unpublished opinion) ($200,000 jury verdict for breach of contract under Michigan law reversed), leave to appeal denied, 442 Mich. 885, 502 N.W.2d 39 (Mich. S. Ct. 1993)
thermotron
"BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN TO YOU IN LIFE. ULTIMATELY, GOD IS STILL ON THE THRONE. THE SUN CAME UP THIS MORNING. THE WORLD WILL NOT END." KEVIN HOLT
A job lost and perspective gained
Gastonia man was fired a week after notifying his firm he had been deployed.
MIKE DRUMMOND
mdrummond@charlotteobserver.com
Kevin Holt of Gastonia bears little likeness to the chiseled warriors depicted in Army posters.
He's 41, heavyset and has a habit of pushing his eyeglasses to the bridge of his nose.
He's a citizen-soldier.
The former sailor enlisted in the National Guard in July 2004 as a way to supplement his income and heed a call to service.
Last summer, between supervising a chow line at Camp Speicher outside Tikrit, Iraq, and running food convoys, Holt sat at dusty computer keyboards, hunting and pecking the answers to his online college course. He hoped a business degree would help him land a job.
Thermotron Industries, based in Holland, Mich., fired Holt in April 2005, near the height of the Bush administration's call-up of National Guard members and just a week after Holt told the company he was being deployed to Iraq.
Holt serviced Thermotron's environmental test chambers, which expose electronics and other devices to temperature extremes. He covered a patch of the Southeast for the privately held, mid-sized company, making about $54,000 a year.
Holt says Thermotron accused him of trying to bill the company for Yellow Pages advertising he had ordered for his side repair business. BellSouth had mailed the bill to Thermotron by mistake, an error Holt said his boss had resolved more than eight months before.
The married father of two worked seven years for Thermotron, which has a growing defense-contract business. The termination was an about-face for a company that two months before firing him had given Holt another glowing annual evaluation.
Fellow soldiers in the National Guard's 505th Engineer Battalion said they thought the timing of the firing looked fishy. They told him about the law designed to protect civilian jobs of part-time soldiers called to active duty.
Holt tried to get his job back. He filed complaints with state and federal labor departments. He thought his case was a slam-dunk.
Thermotron sent letters in its defense. It produced copies of the Yellow Pages bill it said proved Holt tried to deceive the company. The company denied that a supervisor had told Holt the billing mistake had been resolved.
Holt provided documents but couldn't produce anything showing Thermotron fired him because his military service conflicted with the company's need for a repairman in the Southeast.
Channels prove fruitless
Like thousands of service members, Holt's journey through government channels proved futile."They wanted documents," Holt says of labor officials. "But I was getting ready to go to war."
By November 2005, with Holt in Iraq, state and federal labor officials had sent letters to his house.
The agencies ruled Thermotron fired him "for cause."
Richard Castillo, the U.S. Labor Department's assistant director in Michigan, said Holt could request the agency refer the case to the Justice Department for possible litigation.
But Castillo would recommend "no further action be taken."
Ronald Lampen, Thermotron's vice president of service operations, noted agencies ruled in the company's favor. "Holt's allegations are unfounded and untrue," Lampen told the Observer in a phone call. He refused to answer further questions, then hung up.
A call to a job
Above Kevin Holt's backyard workshop, a massive portrait of Jesus stands watch.
"Bad things will happen to you in life," Holt says. "Ultimately, God is still on the throne. The sun came up this morning. The world will not end."
Last October Holt returned home to hugs, red-white-and-blue bunting around the mailbox ... and a job interview.
Espec North America had heard Holt was no longer with competitor Thermotron. After e-mailing Holt in Iraq, the company agreed to talk with him when he got back.
In November, he became Espec's newest employee.
Going from civilian to soldier, from Gastonia to Tikrit and back, from unemployed to employed in a little over a year has imbued Holt with perspective.
"I grew up a lot during the experience," he says. "I never lost a job before. Never experienced unemployment. I always feared facing that. But the calamity I thought was going to happen, didn't happen."
He enrolled in school again, this time to work on a master's in theology through an online program.
"I feel called," Holt says, "to serve as an Army chaplain."
A job lost and perspective gained
Gastonia man was fired a week after notifying his firm he had been deployed.
MIKE DRUMMOND
mdrummond@charlotteobserver.com
Kevin Holt of Gastonia bears little likeness to the chiseled warriors depicted in Army posters.
He's 41, heavyset and has a habit of pushing his eyeglasses to the bridge of his nose.
He's a citizen-soldier.
The former sailor enlisted in the National Guard in July 2004 as a way to supplement his income and heed a call to service.
Last summer, between supervising a chow line at Camp Speicher outside Tikrit, Iraq, and running food convoys, Holt sat at dusty computer keyboards, hunting and pecking the answers to his online college course. He hoped a business degree would help him land a job.
Thermotron Industries, based in Holland, Mich., fired Holt in April 2005, near the height of the Bush administration's call-up of National Guard members and just a week after Holt told the company he was being deployed to Iraq.
Holt serviced Thermotron's environmental test chambers, which expose electronics and other devices to temperature extremes. He covered a patch of the Southeast for the privately held, mid-sized company, making about $54,000 a year.
Holt says Thermotron accused him of trying to bill the company for Yellow Pages advertising he had ordered for his side repair business. BellSouth had mailed the bill to Thermotron by mistake, an error Holt said his boss had resolved more than eight months before.
The married father of two worked seven years for Thermotron, which has a growing defense-contract business. The termination was an about-face for a company that two months before firing him had given Holt another glowing annual evaluation.
Fellow soldiers in the National Guard's 505th Engineer Battalion said they thought the timing of the firing looked fishy. They told him about the law designed to protect civilian jobs of part-time soldiers called to active duty.
Holt tried to get his job back. He filed complaints with state and federal labor departments. He thought his case was a slam-dunk.
Thermotron sent letters in its defense. It produced copies of the Yellow Pages bill it said proved Holt tried to deceive the company. The company denied that a supervisor had told Holt the billing mistake had been resolved.
Holt provided documents but couldn't produce anything showing Thermotron fired him because his military service conflicted with the company's need for a repairman in the Southeast.
Channels prove fruitless
Like thousands of service members, Holt's journey through government channels proved futile."They wanted documents," Holt says of labor officials. "But I was getting ready to go to war."
By November 2005, with Holt in Iraq, state and federal labor officials had sent letters to his house.
The agencies ruled Thermotron fired him "for cause."
Richard Castillo, the U.S. Labor Department's assistant director in Michigan, said Holt could request the agency refer the case to the Justice Department for possible litigation.
But Castillo would recommend "no further action be taken."
Ronald Lampen, Thermotron's vice president of service operations, noted agencies ruled in the company's favor. "Holt's allegations are unfounded and untrue," Lampen told the Observer in a phone call. He refused to answer further questions, then hung up.
A call to a job
Above Kevin Holt's backyard workshop, a massive portrait of Jesus stands watch.
"Bad things will happen to you in life," Holt says. "Ultimately, God is still on the throne. The sun came up this morning. The world will not end."
Last October Holt returned home to hugs, red-white-and-blue bunting around the mailbox ... and a job interview.
Espec North America had heard Holt was no longer with competitor Thermotron. After e-mailing Holt in Iraq, the company agreed to talk with him when he got back.
In November, he became Espec's newest employee.
Going from civilian to soldier, from Gastonia to Tikrit and back, from unemployed to employed in a little over a year has imbued Holt with perspective.
"I grew up a lot during the experience," he says. "I never lost a job before. Never experienced unemployment. I always feared facing that. But the calamity I thought was going to happen, didn't happen."
He enrolled in school again, this time to work on a master's in theology through an online program.
"I feel called," Holt says, "to serve as an Army chaplain."
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